Curse

Fay Vert · Apr 10, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Tomes, I suppose. Lockpicks? Nuh-uh. They drop in normal mode. Got around 30 Treasure Hunter points thanks to lockpicks that dropped, mostly in EotN. (and another half-dozen or so points from various quest reward lockpicks) I refuse to pay for 'em.

Correct, I assume because normal mode chests in EotN areas are locked chests. It was added in the Thursday, December 6, 2007 update.

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Lockpicks now drop in Eye of the North maps in normal mode at the same rate that keys drop in other regions.

cebalrai · Apr 10, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nude Nira

Umm, farmers have never deserved "special treatment" that you talk about, all those nerfs to builds, nerfs to areas, LS........farming code. Do you even think before you post now? Or are you just making things up for +1? Oh and the hardcore farmers are rewarded because THEY ARE working, (typically) harder than the casual player. They are more dedicated, because the farmer stays in a zone, for possibly, hours, and they make money in the process, being rewarded for their hard work.

Do you really mean to suggest that farmers work EIGHT times harder/longer than a non-solo farmer with the same level of dedication? Or...?

Here's your 101st logic failure: you just compared "hardcore farmers" to "casual players". You can't compare these two things when the level of dedication is a variable.

Here's how logic works when making a comparison: Keep all variables the same, save the one being analyzed. Compare a hardcore solo farmer to a *hardcore* 8-man player. Assume same hours, dedication, skill level, and experience. If you use logic, even and you can deduce that the solo farming play style gets special treatment over normal one. If *eight times* the income isn't special treatment, nothing is...

CONGRATULATIONS! You did the following all in one post!

1) Fabricated things that were never said.

2) Made the most flawed comparison in Guru history.

3) Made the classic post that boils down to "why should you care if other people get rich quick but not you?"

strcpy · Apr 11, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

Sorry but you like most are condusing LS with HM supply increase.

Thanks! I've often wondered what that little button meant, I never knew. Well, either that or I didn't feel like writing how HM *also* affects prices when discussing LS. Not sure which though.

Quote:

Let me explain. Before the Loot nerf can you name any common items that were expensive?? There were not many if any at all.

Sure, all sorts - prices at the traders for nearly everything were more expensive. Of course, now that we have hard mode none of that counts as it was the only thing that changed (or the only one some want to admit too).

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Then LS and HM came. Common minor runes actually increased in value slightly due to LS( hurting casual playerbase).

You are confusing LS/HM with the shift towards high health builds and the MUCH higher demand for them. Prices for them *did* go down for a decent amount of time and coincided with the addition of HM/LS. The increase in their prices coincides to when people started noting that the more PvP like high health builds made HM MUCH easier and then the "expensive" runes shifted from the superiors to the minors. Even then the "expensive" stuff was quite a bit less than before. These events were months in between of each other and prices had very much stabilized from HM/LS for a long time before the later price increase.

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HM increased the supply of rare items reducing their prices.
HM had the biggest impact on rare price items than LS by a large margin.

Sure thing - perfectly agree there. LS also stops a great deal of gold from entering the system and shrinks the gap between solo farmers and people who play in 8 man teams. This also reduces prices by not allowing people to become super rich and drive prices for items way up (say, like it did when the 105 monks were in force and we had ~30k black dyes). I fail to see how only *one* of them is the sole cause - or heck even the main cause (for one thing the supply of trader items didn't increase *that* much).

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It is a common misconception and easily made because the two were implemented at the same time.

Yes, it's common for a certain group to *want* it to only be HM so bad that they let their wants talk more than their ability to reason. It's also common for that group to think the other side is a bunch of idiots that didn't realize HM happened.

Taking that amount of gold out of the economy (or rather, not allowing that great amount to flow in) will *always* reduce prices. It may or may not be healthy for that to occur and it may or may not reduce the amount of "fun" of playing the game - that's another issue (I think it removes a great deal of "fun"). Drastically increasing supply will do the same thing. In this case they wanted to shorten the gap between the haves and the have nots while reducing the overall cost of stuff - they succeeded and LS is an integral part of it. Other than to respond to the idea that HM is the main (or only as implied) cause there is no reason to talk about how HM affected stuff.

Which, again, Anet realizes this and any arguing that ignores it is going to fall on deaf ears. You can tell me all day long that HM caused prices to drop, I don't (and I am certain Anet also doesn't) disagree with that. But pretending that LS doesn't affect it while saying that LS affects it and must be removed (if it doesn't affect those things then why care?) isn't going to win over Anet. In fact it tends to get whole posts pretty much ignored.

manitoba1073 · Apr 11, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

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dont you mean the boots for non universal? bug fix?

superior absorb does not require a superior absorb on each piece of armor so very wrong again.

the sup absorb/ sup vigor held their constant 100k/75k prices almost a year after guaranteed salvage in june 2005 update.

HERE IS WHAT DONE THE PRICE HOARDIBG PLAYERS IN

APRIL 2006 UPDATE the dev announvement was 3 X

they were half price as the hoarders panic sold them before a new rune hit the ground.

i loved it

Correction. They intially dropped to 60kish when the 3x drop happened then nosedived when anet reworked how they affected.

Dark Kal · Apr 11, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

It makes a crapload of difference with regard to rares alone. For example, solo farming a certain number of enemies in 1/3 of the time it takes a party of 8? That's 24 times as many rares/hour as each individual in the party would get. The merchant value of those alone makes farming still worth it. And then there's tomes, dyes, keys/lockpicks.

Also, the exemption list is exactly the point. Items on that list are the intended reward for solo farming. You can't brush aside the rewards you do get and go on to complain you're not rewarded.

First of all you missed the entire point. The point was solo farmers do more work alone than a full eight man party therefor deserve more loot. Secondly many casual farming places do not offer significant rare material or green drops. Thirdly in reality; gold items, tomes, dyes, keys/lockpicks drop at such a low rate it hardly matters if you solofarm or play with a full team.

In the end it doesn't matter Anet isn't going to remove lootscaling. You have your opinion I have mine I don't feel like argueing this any more.

tmakinen · Apr 11, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

This thread has deteriorated so much that I'm tempted to write a lengthy (and boring) explanation for why sky is blue (Rayleigh scattering) and water wet (hydrogen bonds) just for the amusement value of scores of people crying "BS!"

However, since there is already a detailed analysis on which option is the rational choice for people depending on their 'social class' in the game, everybody can read it to identify their proper standing on the issue. This, of course, doesn't have anything to do with what ANet will (or won't) do with LS, and now I feel that I have truly done enough work on this issue and will go my merry ways

Dark Kal · Apr 11, 2008, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

However, since there is already a detailed analysis on which option is the rational choice for people depending on their 'social class' in the game

Too bad it's filled with bias, assumptions, fallacies and holes without any actual facts.

Gli · Apr 11, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

First of all you missed the entire point. The point was solo farmers do more work alone than a full eight man party therefor deserve more loot.

And they do get more loot. So what's the problem?

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

in reality; gold items, tomes, dyes, keys/lockpicks drop at such a low rate it hardly matters if you solofarm or play with a full team.

That's ridiculous. It matters a whole lot.

Cab Tastic · Apr 11, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Despite 70 odd pages of discussion I am struggling to come up with a downside for the removal of LS.
We have discounted inflation because we had 2 years of deflation before the loot nerf. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, do not confuse high prices with inflation. Inflation is rising prices.

The pole for this thread has been ridiculed for not representing the GW player base as the vast majority are casual players. Given this regular farmers must make up a small % of the player base by this reasoning. I don't necessarily agree with this as farming is very casual friendly as you can spend as much time doing it as you have free. But I'll got with the pro LS players who believe that casual players will say "WTF is LS".

How much of an impact on the economy will such a small amount of players have? Also, most farmers also do dungeons, missions, DOA etc as well so not all of their play time is farming. The money must also spent on the player/player trading for any price increases on rare items to become noticed. Do you forsee a time when WTB will outnumber WTS for an extended period?

HM will prevent all sup runes from moving much. After all when you kitted out all your hero's with sup vigours how many more do you need to buy?

cebalrai · Apr 11, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

How much of an impact on the economy will such a small amount of players have?

According to Anet, solo farming was having a real impact on the economy and needed to be addressed.

Fril Estelin · Apr 11, 2008, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

According to Anet, solo farming was having a real impact on the economy and needed to be addressed.

No, that's not the exact quote that you can find on page 12 of this thread:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Loot#Loot_scaling

Only "advanced solo farming" (i.e., the humans playing to gather gold for RMT) was harming the economy.

Gli · Apr 11, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Only "advanced solo farming" (i.e., the humans playing to gather gold for RMT) was harming the economy.

I just wanted to remark that the bolded part is purely your own interpretation and not apparent from the link you quoted. Not all people who farm for hours on end are doing it for RMT purposes.

Fay Vert · Apr 11, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

We've all seen the bot trains in various places, elona reach, droknar's forge, granite citadel, bergen bot springs etc. The sheer number of these and their unchecked activities were in full swing when the loot nerf was put in place. I find it hard to believe that normal player activities were competing with this commercial activity that ANet didn't start to address until around the time of the /report feature. Indeed, shortly after the nerf, the bot activity went through the roof! I think this critical failure of the loot nerf was a contributor to force ANet to do things like Banning/Blocking.

Now that all that junk has gone, and none of it thank to the loot nerf, its pretty inconceivable to me to believe that there is any problem in removing that abhoration that is loot scaling.

cebalrai · Apr 11, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

No, that's not the exact quote that you can find on page 12 of this thread:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Loot#Loot_scaling

Only "advanced solo farming" (i.e., the humans playing to gather gold for RMT) was harming the economy.

They said "advanced solo farming". This means people who solo farm regularly, only a minority of whom are RMT people.

cebalrai · Apr 11, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

its pretty inconceivable to me to believe that there is any problem in removing that abhoration that is loot scaling.

Seems like you're ignoring the fact that human solo farmers were negatively impacting the economy, per Anet's comments. How can you not "conceive" of this?

It wasn't just bots that were the problem. It was real people (ie maybe you).

reetkever · Apr 11, 2008, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I know dozens of people who play in many different ways, and I've never heard any of them complaining about a shortage of cash. Not a single one. In fact, even among the anti-loot scaling people, you're a lonely voice. Most are just greedy or claim to have more fun when they get more drops. You're practically the only one anywhere who's actually complaining about a shortage of cash. It boggles the mind!

I said, you get upward of 30 times as much of the items of the exempted list. If you can't figure out how that works, I can't help you.

A few times 500-1,500 per day... how much is a few? 2? 3? 4? That makes 1,000-6,000 per day. And that's just from 'casual farming'? Sounds to me like a fine income for a casual farmer.

So, purple dyes and fur squares make up 90% of the exempted list now? And golden req 13 Restoration Magic Wands, aren't they at least somewhere near 240? Surely not less than 100.

I still don't know what a casual farmer does, but we're getting there, slowly, I guess. We learned that they don't farm on HM. And about goldies... do you even realize that the chance for finding goldies while doing your few daily casual farming runs has never been as high as after loot scaling was introduced, thanks to the removal of loot degradation for repeated runs? Do you even still try to farm? Because you strike me as someone who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

2 or 3 drops? Mmm... I usually have to bring salvage kits so I don't have to leave drops behind.

Again, how about dropping that horribly myopic black and white interpretation of the issue? You're dismissing all the people who aren't hardcore farmers, but efficient farmers, who can make plenty of easy money doing a few runs a day and just merching stuff.

Oh, the irony. I'm not whining, I'm celebrating the way the game works now. I'm jubilant! Hint: whining usually involves some kind of complaint. Look hard at these posts and see who's the one complaining. Another hint: it's not me! And for your information, I've made my points time and time again. Go look for them, I get tired of reiterating them.

That's just silly... you want me to find more merchant junk if I go outside in normal mode and kill my favorite mob of 30-40 than when I do the same in hard mode? I give up trying to understand how your mind works. Consider the towel thrown into the ring.

If I'm the only one complaing of a shortage of cash, how do you explain the 68% that votes for the removal of Loot Scaling? I made all these votes alone?

People DO have more fun with more money, cause everything except for the storyline COSTS money. YOU and the 3 or 4 other pro-LS people here may enjoy beating the storyline 4 or 5 times in a row, but other people want to play the game for more except for just the story.

Again, the 30 times as much drops is BS. Have you actually played the game in solo? You get 1 or 2 drops for clearing the Raptor Cave solo... And that's in Hard Mode. Same goes for Charr, Trolls, Griffons - anything that is solo'ed. The Exemption List items are a rarity and their drop rate is based on luck. Sure, you could get a Black Dye in 1 run... It could also cost you a 1000 runs. That's not a steady source of income.

A few runs is 2-6 times a day. It, of course, depends on the items that one wants to buy. If someone wants to buy FoW armour, he'd still be doing months of Troll runs. 6K is nothing in this game. Especially compared to the 50-100K a day people claim to make.

You know what I meant, so stop being such a smartass. Every dye except for Black and White and all materials (Since the valueable ones only drop in elite area's) are pretty much worth no cassh. Other items on the list are very situational (Event items only drop during events, Lockpicks and Tomes only in Hard Mode (Well, and EotN, but not everyone plays there, and the income for casual players should be ~equal in each game).

Crappy goldies go for less than 100 gold alot of the time. Only the ones in high end areas sell for over 200/300 gold... Which is still not profitable at all, seeing how goldies almost never drop. The drop rate of golden items was lowered because of Loot Scaling, get your facts straight. The Loot Scaling has NOTHING to do with the raising of the Goldies drop rate now, which was the responsibility of the Exemption list.

And again, the removal of the Anti-farm code has no impact on most people, since most people never farmed so much as the point where it would kick in, and even IF it kicked in, more would still drop than the LS causes to drop now.

Efficient farmers are Hardcore farmers 90% of the time. Tell me ONE efficient farm build that doesn't require one to be in an elite area and where the target loot isn't stuff on the exemption list.

Hard Mode drops enough stuff even without the white junk. If the LS was completely removed in HM, everyone would farm there, and items would drop in price even more. Besides, in my honest opinion, Hard Mode shouldn't be farmable at all.

You ARE whining. Even though there are people that want to change the game to a point where no1 is at a disadvantage, you still want to prevent this for no reason at all. You are the one that is whining because you don't want others to farm in this game. Even though it won't impact YOUR gameplay, you still are opposing the removal of the LS with stupid arguments, and while people are having trouble making money, you just laugh at them and say that you CAN make enough money, and therefore the LS should stay.

In other words, you don't have a point. You just come here to pick a fight with the anti-LS people here, and make yourself feel good for telling us how much drops YOU get in the game.

bhavv · Apr 11, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

We have a poll now???

the poll speaks the truth.

Anet / Regina please listen to your fans playing your game.

Cab Tastic · Apr 11, 2008, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Seems like you're ignoring the fact that human solo farmers were negatively impacting the economy, per Anet's comments. How can you not "conceive" of this?

It wasn't just bots that were the problem. It was real people (ie maybe you).

Typical broad generalisation. HOW was it negativley impacting the economy. It is hard to debate with you guys because you never give us any facts to debate against.

MithranArkanere · Apr 11, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Well, maybe you don't see it. But most people already saw it.

They were getting too much cash, and considered amounts of cash meant to be 'big' mere spare change.

100k IS a lot. Is the maximun trader price, the maximum cap of gold in trades, the maximum price meant for most 'high end' items.

Those that farmed a lot before LS, considered 100K to be nothing, and thus changed to ecto as a currency.

That was never meant to be like that.

It's in front of you, you just don't see it.

cebalrai · Apr 11, 2008, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

Typical broad generalisation. HOW was it negativley impacting the economy. It is hard to debate with you guys because you never give us any facts to debate against.

Cab.... Cab Cab Cab Cab....

Please read pages 1 through 70-something of this thread. Not all are good points, but there's plenty of stuff out there.

Besides, I wasn't intending to prove anything myself with my post. I was merely referring to Anet's statement that pre-LS solo farming was negatively impacting the economy. They didn't limit that statement by saying it was just the bots were the problem either.

They have ways and means of viewing the issue that us worm's eye view people do not. Therefore I do not have access to as many hard facts as you'd apparently like me to have....